Thursday, July 19, 2007


"Two men who've betrayed their people!"

The unfolding situation vis a vis the Palestinians is like watching a Greek tragedy unfold.

In 2000, following a provocative move by Sharon, an intifada began, one led by Arafat and his Fatah Party. During the course of that struggle by the Palestinians against the brutal occupation and imperialism of the Israelis, more than 4,000 Palestinian men, women and children were killed and many more were seriously injured. During this period the Israelis, using bulldozers and missiles destroyed even more of the Palestinian infrastructure. Who can forget Jenin?

The Fatah Party over decades was dogged by deep corruption and had little credibility with either its constituents or Western Governments. Eventually, after the death of Arafat (due to rather strange circumstances), democratic elections were held and Hamas swept into power. But Fatah maintained armed militias and friction between them and their Hamas counterparts continued with deaths on both sides.

Immediately the West and Israel mounted a campaign to undermine the new Hamas government because it refused to recognize the occupying state of Israel or to stop its armed struggle. Money was frozen and the new government couldn't operate and people starved.

Meanwhile the President of Palestine, Abbas, a member of the deposed, discredited Fatah Party, began to make conciliatory overtures towards Israel and the West. Sensing both his weakness and his hunger for power, he was immediately championed by them. The fact that his party had been thrown out by the Palestinians and was corrupt didn't phase the West at all. Democracy has many faces.

The Israelis eventually left Gaza but surround it on all sides and still send their troops in or bomb it or close its borders at the drop of a hat. Subsequent events have now created a Hamas enclave in Gaza and a Fatah enclave in the West Bank. The saying: Divide and Conquer was never so true.

Pictures of Abbas embracing Israeli Zionists and Bush Administration officials while selling out his people fill the airwaves daily. Meanwhile the ghosts of all those martyrs who died in vain trying to free Palestine howl and moan and curse in the witching hours because a viable, sovereign State of Palestine surely is now an impossibility!

But the ghost who howls and curses the loudest is Arafat!


Mary Walsh said...

I have to believe that eventually Israel will have America's support withdrawn and they'll be left out on a limb with only the Muslims between the Jews and Common Sense!

Common Sense, I met him briefly the other day, when I was told that Mr Brown will not take England down the same road as Blair.

There is hope yet for a peaceful solution when warring is not supported by other military powers. Fear will force them to the negotiating table I hope!

Daniel said...

America is influenced strongly by powerful Jewish interests, Mary, and will, I believe, continue to support its proxy Israel. Cheers!

Neil Shakespeare said...

Had to laugh this morning when I read that Bush has decided to bring peace to the Middle East by having a conference. Looks he was making a last-ditch effort for the Nobel Peace Prize, but then later in the day nearly all the proposed participants in the proposed conference responded, "To hell with that! We ain't goin' to no 'Peace' conference sponsored by George W. Bush!"

Fleming said...

Daniel, thanks for your comment which led me to read this post. I think it's very valuable to keep setting out the facts in a clear way as you've done here.

I think that Arafat was definitely murdered as a step toward creating a docile herd of Palestinian leaders who can pray, "Israel is my shepherd, I shall always want. . ."

Fleming said...

Mary and Daniel, maybe Mary is thinking of the more distant future when she foresees that America's support for Israel will eventually be withdrawn. I agree with Daniel that at present there's absolutely no chance that the US politicians will free themselves from the Israel Lobby yoke, but I think that things will eventually get so bad -- let us parallel Germany in the inflation and depression years after the First World War -- that a time will come when the truth is openly spoken in America, and there is a powerful backlash. But that can't happen as long as the US is reasonably prosperous and its "information" media are solidly in the hands of the people the Americans need to identify as their enemies. I'm still waiting for even a little bit of publicity about the cause of "9/11" being US support for Israel.

Lucyp said...

The double standards regarding our dealings with Israel and Palestine are stunning. Bush and Blair have no credibility in the Middle East and are widely suspected, quite rightly, of being pro-Israel.
It is hard to think of two men less well qualified to try and bring peace to the middle east.
Until America stop supporting, arming and funding Israel we won't see any peace and shamefully, i really cannot see that happening anytime soon.

Fleming said...

Daniel, please note that I've restored your blog to my VIEW FROM THE MOON Links list after losing it somehow.

Mary Walsh said...

I do realise that America won't leave Israel in the short term, but I feelthat forces outside the control of America will seize the moment.

I think America will eventually go broke because like the rest of us, it is becoming a service industry. Most items of genuine need are coming out of Asia, including a lot of our foodstuffs.

China will take over and Russia will come up again through the ranks...not necessarily as communists...

but I won't be around to see - I just feel it in my bones!!

It is not always the kid with the noisiest toy that ends up running the shop!

Lola Heatherton said...

Oh, my goodness. I've nominated you for a Schmooze Award.

Playful Pete said...

I'm lost here Daniel.

Your blog opposes "3. RELIGIOUS FANATICISM", and yet you fawn over Hamas. You despise theocracy, and yet you support Hamas over the secular Fatah. How bizarre.

You speak of the evil of humanity, yet support those who do this (copy and paste):

Is this your idea of a redeemed humanity?

I'd sooner rather join the majority and fight you to the end to prevent your 'solution' from becoming the norm.

I fear you have let yourself become overcome by hatred Daniel. So much so that you'd even excuse the tactics of a group dedicated towards the destruction of another people.

As for remembering "what happened in Jenin", I remember fake reports about a non-existant massacre. So does the United Nations report:

Were you being naughty? Did you think others here would fall for that?

As for sanctions on the Hamas government:

"Money was frozen and the new government couldn't operate and people starved"

Yes and no. Money to the Hamas government was frozen. Instead it went straight to the Palestinian street through aid agencies re-direction, avoiding the government.

More aid was given in 2006 than 2005. It just did not go through the government.

Daniel said...

Playful, I always enjoy your comments, especially the balance in them! Let me make a few points.
1. Hamas was the democratically elected Government! Surprise, surprise.
2. I don't believe that humanity can be redeemed! Your comment confirms it.
3. I feel no hatred, only pity and contempt for the brutal, occupying Israelis (of whose many sins you made absolutely no mention as usual)!
4. Via CNN and the BBC I watched the whole Jenin saga including the aftermath. Your recollection, like your views on the M.E., is totally distorted and one-eyed.

Please call again, Pete.

Playful Pete said...


You are absolutely correct in stating that "Hamas was the democratically elected Government".

And so, like all democratically elected governments, they realise that each and every adopted policy will be its responsibiity and have a result. So a democratically elected Hamas government that decides to launch daily Qassam rockets into the Israeli town of Sderot, should equally realise that the democratically elected government of Israel will likely respond. And so Hamas accept the results of its considered policy.

Furthermore, elections alone are not indicative of democracy. You can't win an election, and then implement a coup, as Hamas did, driving out democratically elected Fatah members from Gaza. Not very democratic, is it!

2.) You say that "Via CNN and the BBC I watched the whole Jenin saga including the aftermath. Your recollection, like your views on the M.E., is totally distorted and one-eyed"

How excellent that now, suddenly, you so heartily trust the coverage of BBC and CNN (in particular the latter).

They, of course, have never engaged in sensationalised reporting. Ever.

The "aftermath" of the Jenin non-event is perfectly aligned with my "recollection" as documented in the United Nations report:

My recollection was that there was no massacre, and funnily enough this also appears in the UN report. Fancy that!

The UN report documents that 52 people died, MORE THAN HALF of whom were armed gunmen.

Surely you're not into fairy-believing now!

Stay away from a generalised commercial channel such as CNN. It's as good for you brain as fast food is for your body.

As for "balance", I'm not sure you ever said a good thing about Israel. Not once, since this blog has started. Have you? Now that's "balance".

Daniel said...

Dear Pete, Israel has done nothing during their forty years of brutal occupation and genocide that warrants praise!

And Israel kept the press well away from Jenin while they did their dirty business. I still remember the refrigeration vans waiting for the bodies.

Are you seriously trying to compare crude homemade directionless rockets with guided missiles launched by American F-16s?

Are you Jewish, Pete?

Playful Pete said...


So vans were brought in for the cameras. Great stuff. CNN viewers sucked in by the bucket load.

While the press were kept away, the United Nations were not.

And their considered report...
...released in August 2002, well after the April event, and with much time to investigate, found no mass bodies.

They found that of the 52 dead Palestinians, 27 were armed gunmen.

And instead of using those F-16's to bomb the entire area and wipe out the murderous Hamas operatives, Israel chose the most dangerous type of fighting for its own soldiers, going street to street instead. Israel lost 23 fighters.

-No, I am not Jewish. And I do find it most instructive that you should ask that question. Is my opinion worth more becaue I'm not a Jew? Would you lessen the value of a Jewish poster here if he had the same views as me, because, well, he's Jewish!

Is my view only accepted for counter argument because I'm not Jewish? Perhaps from now on, you can ask any pro-Israel posters here if they are Jewish, and if so, to also show a little yellow star alonside their name.

Then you'll know if they're just Jewish opinions.

Daniel said...

Pete, could I strongly recommend that you visit Desert Peace (which is to be found in my Special Links).

Consider carefully what Steve, a blog publisher who is in Jerusalem, is saying. Try some of your pet theories out on him, give me a break. You might find his responses instructive!

As to your infantile smear about the yellow stars, well..once I gave you credit for having some intelligence! No more.

Playful Pete said...

-It was YOUR question as to the religion of the person offering the opinion, Daniel, that defied any logic. Why on earth would you have asked it?

-Through an earlier relationship (no longer), I have previously lived, worked and studied in Israel, Daniel. Thus I gained a foothold into their society, and now feel more qualified than most Australians, (who you may think you can easily fool), to comment. And hence my outsider's respect, and dare I say admiration for these people who have battled adversity for so long, only to see the most progressive state in the Middle-East now being betrayed by the so called descendants of the Enlightenment in the West.

Daniel said...

Your comment demonstrate clearly that you are completely biased, Pete, and you don't fool me for a moment!

Let me say as my final response to you that any country that has brutally occupied another for forty years, has ignored more than a 100 U.N. Resolutions, has surreptitiously acquired nuclear weapons, and has carried out an unofficial genocide against the people it's occupying to say nothing about stealing even more of their land than they were given, all carried out under the elitist belief that they are God's children and that Arabs are vermin, is not, in my opinion, a progressive State. It is a rogue State!

Let's agree to disagree!

Playful Pete said...

Let's agree to disagree.
As long as you get that last word in, hey ; )

DivaJood said...

Daniel, I have to go with Pete on this. You, like many Left Wing bloggers, either ignore the atrocities committed by Palestinians against Israel (and, in truth, against Palestinians) OR you justify the use of violence and murder.

While much of what the Israeli government does is wrong, this is not a one-sided fight. Israel is hated by the Left; Israel is hated by many nations simply because it is a Jewish State; Israel is a convenient scapegoat.

There are solutions, and the first step in finding those solutions is to not distort facts. The next step is to stop assigning blame. Israel exists. It is a soveriegn nation, and it exists despite being surrounded by enemies who wish to drive it into the sea - except Egypt and Jordan no longer wish to see that happen. They have trade agreements with Israel, and recognize Israel, and may in fact be the nations that pave the way to peaceful solutions.

Israel must grant the same right of return to Palestinians as Jews have. One nation, two people, and it can work. The Separation Wall MUST come down. And Palestinians need to stop launching rockets at Israel; and they need to stop strapping bombs to the waists of their young men and women and sending them into civilian outposts.

But the convenience of hate without reason serves no useful purpose. Your question to Pete - "Are you Jewish?" - raises all kinds of credibility issues. What difference would it make? There are many Jews, including Israeli citizens, who embrace peace. There are several Palestinian/Israeli groups that work together to try to bring about peaceful solutions. They've dropped the blame game, and have started to work toward solutions.

I challenge you to do the same.

Daniel said...

Divejood, thanks for you input into this important issue. I know about groups working for peace. You'll notice Desert Peace among my links. Steve and I work together frequently. I would recommend you visit his site, think about what he has to say.

Regarding the comment about Israel being a scapegoat. This appears to completely deny the continual atrocities and human right abuses which Israel has perpetrated over forty years and is still carrying out. It is Israel that is the militaristic occupying power, Divajood, hence surely it can't realistically be called a scapegoat!

Just compare the state of Israel with the Palestinian Territories next time you're watching television about the M.E.: in Israel there is affluence, wealth - in the Palestinian Territories the people live among ruins and experience daily poverty and humiliation and fear.

Next, Israel will never agree to the right of return although, if pressured enough, it may make a token payment. And Israel will never agree to a Palestinian state which is entirely sovereign (ie, can have armed forces).

Finally, I reject the label 'left-winger'. I am a humanist, one who condemns all injustice. The injustices the Palestinians have suffered is monumental and I expose them whenever I can!


Livia said...

The question of being a jew was not out of context here any more than a question about being a palestinian would have been.
If someone puts forth an opinion so obviously biased (as questions even documented stories like Jenin) the question naturally arises, that he may not see (or want to see) it because he is a party to the conflict. Either jew or palestinian.
If you are in a conflict it is much more difficult to get a clear view of the problem. If Pete were a jew, that could have been in his excuse.

Another note: no one dares to say anything against jews nowadays, today the muslims are considered to be free game. So if you are out to find racism look in the other way.

And regarding the fight between Israel and the Palestinians, looks very much one-sided to me :)
Have a nice day,

Playful Pete said...


I would implore you to read Bertrand Russell:

"The Fallacy Of The Superior Virtue Of The Oppressed'.

He makes reference to the fact that it wasn't enough to contend that oppression was an evil. The oppressed had to be dignified.

After coming to power in 1995/96, and lasting until 2001, the Taliban are now the underdogs in Afghanistan. Are we automatically to support these oppressed underdogs?

Have they satisfied the humanist desire for ethical conduct?

I'll leave you to work that tough one out.

Similarly HAMAS, whose charter begs for the slaughter of all Jews,... it above (especially Article Seven)....hardly prove to be a notable pillar of desired human conduct. (except on this blog maybe, big fan base here).

It does not give credit to those who seek the betterment of humanity to support those whose very wish is to undermine that betterment of humanity.

Daniel said...

Livia, Welcome aboard. Your comment was pertinent!

Don't mind Pete. If the Israelis tomorrow went out and slaughtered all the Palestinians he would find some way to justify it!

Playful Pete said...

"Don't mind Pete. If the Israelis tomorrow went out and slaughtered all the Palestinians he would find some way to justify it!"

Wow, Daniel, that's a wild thing to say.

At least you have unwittingly conceded that Israel is not slaughtering all Palestinians today then.

A far cry from all the hyperbolic "genocide" cries.

Daniel said...

Israel is only slaughtering a few of them today, Pete, and yesterday, and the day before...

But tomorrow they might get really serious! Cheers.